Monday, January 7, 2013

That would explain the fantasies

This is a surprising and not-often reported aspect of rape that may, or may not, be related to some basic Game concepts:
This is a topic that has been discussed a great deal in the past with counselors, rape victims and other online forums. It is however still a taboo topic for Survivors to admit.  It is usually thought of as not being PC or polite and people start getting very defensive about it. Well, exploring and trying to find out the truth is not helped by closing one's eyes to things we rather not believe.

I think that the answer to the question as to why do some females orgasm during a sexual assault or rape is that all of the various explanations have some validity, but none of them tell the entire story in the case of every individual victim of the crime. First of all, orgasms in women being raped are not frequent, but they are not uncommon either. In the study you cite, about 5% to 21% of women interviewed in the studies surveyed reported having an orgasm when they were raped.  Researchers have hypothesized that the actual figure is probably a bit higher in reality due to victims being understandably embarrassed both by the rape and by having achieved an orgasm during unwanted, forced sexual relations. Around 20% seems to be a likely, real-word figure.
I think 5 percent would be remarkable.  Around 20 percent seems absolutely astonishing to me, considering that it is estimated that only 30 percent of women climax via intercourse alone.  Now, I very much doubt we'll ever get any reliable scientific data on the phenomenon, although I suppose it is remotely possible, given the current appreciation for EL James's literary adventures combined with the potential for forcibly administered pleasure, that a number of women might agree to be raped in the interest of scientific progress.  It seems even less likely that rapists just happen to regularly target the minority of women who are capable of intercourse-only climax, even though that indicates some women must be more likely to have an orgasm from rape than from consensual sex.

If that is true, this would have some astonishing implications for intersexual relations as well as the apparent reliability of the average woman's capacity for understanding the complicated intricacies of her own sexuality.  It might also explain the otherwise inexplicable popularity of certain SF writers among the female SF/F readership.

The fascinating thing, of course, is the way that those considering the phenomenon are resolutely to avoid the obvious, which is that women respond in a sexually positive manner to male dominance, including violent male dominance.  The idea that some rapists must engage in foreplay only demonstrates the intellectual panic aroused by the statistical observations. That women would respond positively to extreme sexual dominance should be no surprise, as it is very much in line with what Game Theory would logically suggest, and yet it is due to the fact that even the most experienced Game theoretician is steeped in decades of anti-scientific equalitarian propaganda.

Sexual response is a continuum, not a circle.  So, it makes sense that the more extreme the input, the more extreme the output.  Now, for the benefit of the cognitively challenged and the terminally offended, I will trouble to point out that no amount of orgasms can be used to justify rape anymore than an instinctive  mouth-watering response to chocolate justifies force-feeding someone hot fudge sundaes, but it is both gutless and pointless to play ostrich and pretend that the reported phenomenon simply does not happen.

40 comments:

stg58/Animal Mother said...

20%? That low? I must be doing something wrong.

SarahsDaughter said...

This would also explain the simultaneous climax...you know...when things are getting ramped up...

Brian said...

There are other factors that might account for this that *would* be testable, though. The obvious one is the huge amount of adrenaline pumping through a woman's body during such a circumstance.

Shimshon said...

Brian, I think if I, as a man, were as amped up on adrenaline as a woman being would be, sexual arousal wouldn't be something I would be worried about happening.

I'm not surprised in the least by this report. It's just further on the same continuum of women staying in violent relationships (Roissy likes to use the example of Rhianna over and over) against their better judgement.

Shimshon said...

"...as a woman being RAPED would be..."

Koanic said...

Perhaps some of the resident alphas can weigh in on the female climax percentage issue. I have a notch count in the teens and think it has much more to do with how mutually into each other the lovers are. You can make a girl cum by talking dirty on the phone, so how speech plus sex not work? It doesn't really make sense to me. But I'm not an alpha.

Josh said...

Only 30%?

First hypothesis would be because of a lack of dominance exhibited by most gamma/delta males.

I believe it was roosh who noticed that, when he stopped paying attention to making his partner orgasm, and focused on his own, he saw an increase in the orgasms his partners had.

Anonymous said...

Makes sense. Rape results in pregnancy twice as often as consensual sex. Maybe rapists are better at targeting fertile women.

On the other, in the wiki on "pregnancy from rape", some scientists think rape may trigger unscheduled ovulation, which may correspond to the orgasm.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Todd Akin say that women rarely get pregnant through rape because their bodies shut down?

Josh said...

Only if it's a legitimate rape, anon

taterearl said...

Rape has been so watered down when it is actually legit you don't know if she is crying wolf or not.

Having bad consensual sex and feeling remorse or allowing yourself to get drunk and invite a guy back to your place is not rape ladies.

Signe said...

Now, for the benefit of the cognitively challenged and the terminally offended, I will trouble to point out that no amount of orgasms can be used to justify rape anymore than an instinctive mouth-watering response to chocolate justifies force-feeding someone hot fudge sundaes,

Or maybe just for those of us reacting with horror to the phenomenon and thinking about boarding ourselves up in our apartments with a stockpile of assault rifles. The world is a scary place for girls.

"Hot fudge sundaes", though, that sounds tasty. Wish I could get away from the desk for lunch today. (Not that I could taste anything anyway...)

mmaier2112 said...

I read this linked from Roissy last week at work and was stunned. At first.

But it ties right into the massive way women are unaware of their own triggers.

And it only reinforces the idea of doing the play-acting rape scene he suggested years back. I bet most women would be drenched before you even touched her nether-regions.

Anonymous said...

"If you are getting raped you might as well lay back and enjoy it"

Aledgedly a common piece of advice in Brazil.

Anonymous said...

Akin, while a fool, illustrates why it is hard to make headway against feminized culture. 'Legitimate rape" is a valid statement which most intellectually honest people interpret as distinguishing between rape and the absurd feminist definition of rape.

Yes Akin is a fool, but even fools know what a legitimate definition of rape is.

TLM said...

It's not a stretch or shocking. Women, some anyway, enjoy their hair being pulled, spanked, dirty talked, and handled roughly during sex.

Stickwick said...

... and thinking about boarding ourselves up in our apartments with a stockpile of assault rifles.

You'd be better off with one shotgun and a stockpile of ammo. Your neighbors would be better off, too.

The world is a scary place for girls.

Men are much more likely to be victims of violent crime than women. It's a scary world for everyone. However, you can greatly reduce your risk of being a victim by exercising common sense.

Signe said...

Rape has been so watered down when it is actually legit you don't know if she is crying wolf or not.

This times a billion. Feminism's gone a long way toward taking away all our protections and hurting the innocent.

By the way, completely OT, but is there a discreet way to figure out who put a thing of ice cream on my desk? Partly because I don't know if it's booby-trapped unless I know where it came from, and I really want to eat it. Also partly because I don't want to look like a complete paranoid nut to my evil-minion coworkers.

Signe said...

You'd be better off with one shotgun and a stockpile of ammo. Your neighbors would be better off, too.

Any recommendations on the kind of lumber I should use while turtling up? /laugh/

Men are much more likely to be victims of violent crime than women.

That's true. The goons couldn't even qualify for health insurance; mine just had specific restrictions. You know the kind: no coverage for preexisting conditions, birth-control methods, or mutations caused by experiments gone hideously wrong (which has happened twice so far, by the way).

Anonymous said...

@ Signe,
on the ice cream

Send out an email to everyone in your workgroup thanking them for the icecream and that you would like to share it with all of them.

watch the body language

Aeoli Pera said...

Unsurprising result. I call this the Genghis Khan approach.

Can't argue with success!

Aeoli Pera said...

"This" meaning strictly r-selection.

Wendy said...

Yes Akin is a fool, but even fools know what a legitimate definition of rape is.

Biologically, Akin wasn't right, but he wasn't entirely wrong either. Of course, no real discourse of the subject is possible. It's all knee jerk reaction. All the media wanted was a good, entertaining frenzy.

The word rape has been watered down as to almost lose all meaning. When someone can say "verbal rape" with a straight face...

Signe said...

Send out an email to everyone in your workgroup thanking them for the icecream and that you would like to share it with all of them.

Butbutbut it's miiiiiine.

I'll try that, though! Thanks!

Loki of Asgard said...

I wonder the Brady Campaign did not include this information in their plea for disarmament.

"Murder lasts forever. Rape can last thirty seconds, and who knows? You might even enjoy it."

Tim said...

I'm not saying that I think that it is the case, but is it possible that the rapists are unconsciously selecting the women who orgasm during intercourse? Maybe they do something differently.

Facepalmer said...

"If you are getting raped you might as well lay back and enjoy it"

Aledgedly a common piece of advice in Brazil."

I am Brazilian, and this is bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Facepalmer is probably an European liberal leftist from Brazil (dwelling mostly in big cities). There's a lot of them there.

Anonymous said...

The 20% figure is not at all surprising to me. My ex couldn't orgasm without rough rape-simulated sex. She loved the gentle kind but the orgasms there were "pedestrian".

Jestin Ernest said...

that a number of women might agree to be raped in the interest of scientific progress.


*snicker*

this is like the inverse of the "evil shenanigans" skit, right?

"but our rapes are cheeky. and fun!

yeah his rapes are cruel and tragic.

which makes them not rapes at, really.

[ irish accent ]
evil rapes.
[ /irish accent ]"

voluntary rapes ... you've made my day.

Philalethes said...

"The Girl Cain't Help It!" — Little Richard, 1956

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqz6Y9aHGIQ

dannyfrom504 said...

damn near every woman i've ever slept with admitted to having a "rape fantasy". and all of them admitted it isn't the fact that they are being raped, but male dominance is such a turn on for them.

i tend to know how to spot the naturally submissive women in my little world.lol. lucky me.

taterearl said...

Why does it take going rapey to display dominance? Display it everywhere.

My goal is to be dominant outside the bedroom...so that inside it is just an extension of my personality.

Anonymous said...

My goal is to be dominant outside the bedroom...so that inside it is just an extension of my personality.

Agreed!

Facepalmer said...

"Facepalmer is probably an European liberal leftist from Brazil."

Lollzzololzzzzollzz!

MaMu1977 said...

Genitalia are designed to work, whether their possessors like it or nor, and they're going to trigger the release of endorphins when they're stimulated properly. If you take an observant Mormon to a strip club and get him a lap dance, his mind may be saying "Wait until marriage", but his penis is going to say, "Dick goes in?", and get ready for action. If you're hooking up with a religious girl, or a "frigid" girl or a girl who knows that "she shouldn't be doing this" and you fiddle with the clit and rub her G-spot, she's going to get aroused despite herself. If you have a decent level of stamina and your partner is in the right position, you're going to give her enough stimulation to orgasm even if she's only with you on a dare or some other frivolous set of circumstances, because choosy genitalia don't get passed down to offspring.

I'll bet any amount of money that at least half of those "orgasmed during rape" cases involved girls who had been worked over so well (stimulation of multiple erogenous zones, proper male frame, etc.), that they would have climaxed if their "rapist" had been Emmanuel Lewis or Peter Dinklage (as in, a man who couldn't have overpowered them with anything but a gun.) Did they *want* to have sex (at the beginning of the encounter?) No. Did they *let* their partner do what he did because they figured that nothing would come of it (pun intended)? Yes. But were they in control of what would happen *after* they began to flush and gasp? Absolutely. The first time that I had sex with a Japanese woman, she told me to leave even as her pussy was squeezing my fingers and her nipples resembled pencil erasers. And, I left. If she had said nothing and just pulled me atop of her, I *could* have been designated guilty of "rape by coercion" (according to feminists), but I'm the type of man who listens to his partner(s). If Cute Carol decides to hang out with Nerdy Ernie and Ernie pulls out some "Joy of Sex" techniques that the average man doesn't know, then she let's him get astride of her and opens her legs, she can *claim* to be raped (after all, Ernie is a spindly nerd with no real Game and she was just there out of pity. She didn't *plan* to have sex at all!), but it wouldn't be "legitimate"**

As long as rape="Any sex that I've ever had that I don't feel entirely comfortable about acknowledging.", then rape statistics of any sort are flawed from the outset. When you live in a time in which, "Only the first six inches were consensual" (one of the most absurd claims that arose from the Bryant case), "I was raped, but I washed all of my clothes and sheets in bleach before trotting it. Yes, even my expensive $200 colour bedding", doesn't get laughed out of a police station, and "I invited him up, I drank more wine than him in my apartment, I took off his pants, I bent over, I never told him to stop, but now I feel uncomfortable", is seen as rape by strident feminists, it begins to mean nothing. You get to the point when you realise, "Jesus, some women just refuse to do anything to take care of themselves.", and start blanking things out.

**Case in point-Sat on a court martial for rape back in 2006. Guy recorded the liaison, his JAG noted that the accused not only performed oral sex on the accuser, but that the accuser never said or did anything to stop the accused. The recording has crystal clear sound with no blank spots, so we could tell that the accuser never said, "No", or "Stop", or even "We shouldn't be doing this". Defendant was acquitted, accuser went on to write an article in 2007 about the US military's "rape culture", which is the reason why I can't take the term seriously.

Anacaona said...

Another possibility is that the body is protecting the vagina of further damage by lubricating once a foreigner object is already in.Some women might end up orgasming if aside from the lubrication other triggers are touched.

And according to Evo-Bio rape evolved as a sexual strategy of lesser men not Alphas. A sexually attractive man should have the woman consenting from the get go,YMMV.

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Anonymous said...

Did anyone track down the study "cited" in the article? Basing an argument on statistics in a blog post isn't rigorous at all.

That blog post is a reposting of an answer to this yahoo answers question:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090323214325AAAbJCh

The study in question is linked as follows:
http://calor.hit.bg/lib/Sexual%20arousal%20and%20orgasm%20in%20subjects%20who%20experience%20forced.pdf

That link is dead, but there are others available via a quick search. eg:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23150432/Sexual-Arousal-and-Orgasm-in-Subjects-Who-Experience-Forced-Stimulation

Both 4 and 5% are cited as female rape-related orgasm statistics.

The 21% cited in the blog post appears to be a mistake on blogger/yahoo answerer's part though -- the only place I see 21% in the paper is relating to physical signs of arousal during sexual assault (including but not limited to rape). This would be more akin to a man getting an erection while under duress/stress or during sexual assault, which isn't unknown either. Either way, the "20% of women orgasm during rapes" speculation isn't supported by the paper.

The paper goes to some length to indicate that physical responses to stimuli are not necessarily volitional, and that stimuli that might be though to be inhibitory (eg, fear) can paradoxically have the opposite effect in some individuals.

The paper also discusses male response to sexual assault, though without statistics relating to orgasm. They limit themselves to acknowledging that men are capable of having orgasms too, and they are usually easier to recognize.

There are also blogs on the internet that talk about children who have orgasms during sexual assault (no, I haven't tracked down any papers cited to that effect, though you are welcome to do so).

eg:
http://ouradopt.com/adoption-blog/nov-2008/faitha/trauma-tuesday-orgasms-during-rape-and-sexual-abuse

Tell me, would you respond positively to paedophiles who classified this as the child "responding positively to extreme sexual dominance"?

Simply, your conclusion that it is self evident that the incidence of orgasm response in rape victims is a "positive response to male dominance" is not supported. Nevermind that calling it "positive" is already begging the question. It is an involuntary and unpredictable response to forced sexual stimulation in a likely unique and uniquely stressful situation and doesn't make it a pleasant experience. Wishful thinking need not apply.

aionbest said...

For example, I once commented about the mistake that had been made in hiring a young woman who was leaving the company because she was getting married and intended to have children as soon as possible. My comment enraged a middle-aged woman who happened to be an HR director. The woman was furious at the thought that the single young woman should not have been hired for that job even though it was her own personal policy to not hire single young women for that very reason. In fact, the only reason I made the comment was to observe that what had happened tended to justify her policy.

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