Monday, October 29, 2012

Shame and the single man

Dr. Helen is more than a little dubious that women will be successful in attempting to shame single men into marriage:
So now that so many men don’t get married, the society will spend it’s time trying to shame them and discriminate to keep those guys in line. I imagine this will backfire. I was talking to a shoe salesman in his thirties the other day where I am visiting in Santa Monica and he asked me about my work and I told him about my forthcoming book. Without any prompting, he said, “I don’t want to get married.” When I asked “Why?” he said, “The risk is too great and there is no benefit. Even if you get a pre-nup, it doesn’t work. There is no incentive to me.” Apparently, he is smart to stay single according to one of the commenters at the article I mentioned who had this to say about marriage:
Was single, had ample money and plenty of very open minded young ladies to spend my time with. Was having the time of my life, met a wonderful woman then got married and we had a couple of kids. Now I’m in a perpetual state of worry financially, rarely see my nearest/dearests for fun, and get a bj on Christmas and my birthday. Stay single boys, keep living the dream!!!!!!!
So just maybe there are rational reasons other than weirdness and “fussiness” that keep men from tying the knot. But then, that would mean a columnist like the one writing the piece mentioned would have to understand more about where men are coming from and less about how she and society want men to fall in line with what women and society expect.
She is correct to be dubious because what we're seeing here are examples of both marginal utility and female solipsism.  The solipsism can be seen in how women frequently attempt to direct shaming tactics towards men because they find shaming tactics to be so effective with women and cannot imagine that men would respond differently.  The marginal utility of the tactic can be seen in how American men have, over the last 40 years, become increasingly indifferent, indeed, in some cases even openly hostile, to female demands and female expectations of them.

The problems Western societies in general, and American society in particular, are already beginning to face were no less predictable than the problems facing Chinese and Indian societies as a result of their massive slaughter of the unborn female population.  These problems are significantly different, of course.  Contra the feminist assumptions, (and by now it should be no surprise to observe that events have proven them to be wrong yet again), just as the slaughter of girls has raised the relative MMV of the surviving women in Chinese and Indian society by reducing their supply, the legal degradation and economic deterioration of men has raised the relative MMV of the smaller number of men still deemed marriageable by women.

It is simple economic supply and demand at work, on both sides.  The female demand for more education and financial success increases, thus raising the price of the desirable men.  However, the male demand for women has significantly declined due to the increased legal risks and increasing age of women at first marriage, among other things, further reducing their supply.  Anyone who has taken Econ 101 should be able to correctly calculate what the interaction of the moving supply and demand curves necessarily implies: women will find it harder and harder to find desirable men willing to marry them.  In September, I pointed out that already, the math dictates "only one-third of women in college today can reasonably expect to marry a man who is as well-educated as they are."  And that ratio is only going to continue falling as time goes on, barring massive social, economic, or political changes.

This change in marriage-related demographics is not the only, nor the primary, reason the West is in decline.  But it is most definitely a powerful factor in speeding up the process of decline and fall... and trying to shame single men responding rationally to the changes in society into modifying their behavior is simply not a credible solution.

156 comments:

taterearl said...

Ah the guilt trip...the last resort when nothing else works.

You can't shame men who have an idea how reality works.

Anonymous said...

More projection from women.

Shame works on women (or at least used to), because women live more in the herd. Pressure to conform to the herd is strong.

Shame doesn't work on men. Influencing male behavior requires tangible incentives. Men realize the incentives to marry aren't outweighing the risks. No amount of shaming will influence a man to marry if he thinks the incentives aren't there.

deti

Josh said...

That details article was dreck. According to the writer, if guys are not married it's because they're either playboys, gay, workaholics, or have impossibly high standards.

It seems like you could use those exact same criteria and write an article about why women are in their thirties and still not married. Of course that's misogynistic.

TLM said...

Kudos for adding Dr. Helen to your links, she's a good read and looks like she has a nice rack in her bio pic. Now if you'd just delete Susan at HUS. She's clueless.

Stickwick said...

@ Josh: It's not misogynistic if it's phrased the right way. Women are certainly more inclined to own those reasons for spinsterhood than "too damn old." So, instead of slut, lesbian, workaholic, or impossibly high standards, you say:

- sexually liberated / exploring her sexuality
- embracing an alternative lifestyle
- career-driven
- possessing high standards (leave out "impossibly," since it carries judgement)

All legitimate and PC-approved reasons for remaining single.

mnl said...

Interesting you mention the "surplus male" problem in China and India in the very same breath as Dr. Helen's "Men on Strike." I suspect there is more in common with the two situations than meets the eyes.

In an excellent book called "Bare Branches: The Security Implications of Asia's Surplus Male Population" the authors, Hudson and den Boer retrace societies that have historically had a surplus of males just as in India and China today. It's not a pretty outcome.

What's consistently happened over history is that once a society reaches a threshold of disenfranchised males--that is, males who have no genetic stake in maintaining a calm social order; males with no genetic investment in the future--all hell tends to break loose. There are more civil wars or revolutions, more cross-border wars, more social and economic instability. The data are pretty consistent on this over time.

Now consider that whether by raw demographics (as in India and China) or by social disincentives (such as the motives behind a "marriage strike")... the immediate symptom is the same: a surpose of disenfranchised males; males with little prospect of a stable, rewarding marriage; males who realize it's unlikely they'll have a stable family.

One can try shaming them, putting these males to work in a more robust economy, or drafting them into the military and killing them off... but all that's only going to postpone the inevitable: social instability. Shaming simply doesn't address the cause.

It's all very sad. The sexual dystopia is all going on under our very noses--and most are unable to label it as such, let alone reverse it.

Josh said...

So, instead of slut, lesbian, workaholic, or impossibly high standards, you say: - sexually liberated / exploring her sexuality- embracing an alternative lifestyle- career-driven- possessing high standards (leave out "impossibly," since it carries judgement) 

Exactly. Except change the last bit to "men are intimidated by her education/intelligence/empowerment" and add in "here are no good men" to take the focus from the women and put back on those evil slacker men.

Cail Corishev said...

It's not so much that men can't be shamed -- a man certainly can feel shame when he's done something shameful. But by the time a man has decided against marriage, he's attained a deep enough understanding of the forces involved here to recognize attempts to shame him for what they are. He already knows there's nothing shameful about refusing to marry the kind of woman who's finding herself alone because he's going his own way.

Now, if he's taking a pass on marriage because he's too busy banging college girls, you might be able to shame him about that. But even if you can get him to quit fornicating, that doesn't mean he'll instead marry someone who was banging guys like him 10-15 years ago and has decided she's ready to settle down and let someone else pay the bills.

Dr. Illusion said...

It's not just women who try to shame men into marriage. Other men do it as well. I've been with my girlfriend for over a year, and she lives with me. We are perfectly content. I told her long ago that I will never marry her. But the men at work, both the married and unmarried ones, are always telling me that I "need to" , "should" , or "have to" get married. Even the ones who are consistently complaining about their wives and their home life. I suppose misery loves company. Maybe it's because I work in a male dominated field, but I get a lot more shaming language from other men than from women. I wonder why this is?

Jack Amok said...

Men can be shamed, but there's an important catch. Most women can't shame men by themselves. All they can do is remind men of the shame they will get from other respected men if they continue whatever behavior the woman is trying to shame them for.

Well, our society doesn't have all that many respected men any more, and the few that there are don't particularly buy into the feminist line.


Pip said...

I like Susan. I vote keep her. She provides a different light without being dopey.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Funny when you mention shame. I'm fairly certain our society has lost just every vestige of shame imaginable. I mean, check out people of Wal-Mart online and disagree with me.

Shame doesn't work on single men because single men know enough about shit tests to properly deal with it. All this talk about women shaming men into marriage is really just another shit test.

Stickwick said...

Other men do it as well. I've been with my girlfriend for over a year, and she lives with me. We are perfectly content. I told her long ago that I will never marry her.

There's little point in trying to shame you, since you're presumably aware of what you're doing and how you're benefiting from this arrangement. But I can practically guarantee you that your girlfriend believes the end result of your shack-up situation is marriage, despite what you've told her. When you two inevitably break up, her chances of marrying well will be materially damaged, and it's 100% her fault. Your girlfriend is very foolish, and I think Dr. Laura is right to shame such women by calling them unpaid whores. Feminism has made women so unbelievably stupid.

Badger said...

Men can certainly be shamed, but only when the people doing the shaming are people in whose eyes the man wants some standing. Women used to have a presumptive ability to confer approval on men, and older men had the same for younger men.

But it all requires a sort of cognitive illusion, a sense that your honor is important vis a vis society. When that illusion is pierced, the man is done entirely with the honor gambit, and the shaming is totally ineffective.

It's like a guy who has finally decided he's done with his wife's nagging, and stops reacting entirely to her shit.

Men who have decided against marriage, or who don't care what random men and women think of him, have lost the illusion. Let's not overrate Helen's anecdata...plenty of men are still susceptible to the wagging finger.

"But the men at work, both the married and unmarried ones, are always telling me that I "need to" , "should" , or "have to" get married. Even the ones who are consistently complaining about their wives and their home life."

My best friend has been living with his GF for years, no plans to get married, and says he's always getting the same shit from unhappily married people at work.

"Feminism has made women so unbelievably stupid."

Maybe it's just revealed the capacity for rationalization and cognitive dissonance that makes any non-politican male blush with humility. Old-school society seem to have as one of its values not allowing women to believe their own bullshit. Witness hoe effectively women respond to Athol's C-FO model, having a competent Captain to tell her to calm down and quit worrying.

I'm not opposed to all of the changes and progress of the last 40 years, but it does seem to be the case that women are becoming increasingly less skilled at making sense of all the personal, professional and lifestyle choices they are faced with. This is undoubtedly linked to the dismantelement of elder guidance and structure in society, even in the upper classes.

The surfeit of choices should be a positive, but it seems to just fill women with false hopes of "having it all" and resentment that they can't, and a sense of eternal dissatisfaction and opportunity-hopping.

I'll say it again because I like the line: traditional societies not allowing women to believe their own bullshit.

Badger said...

"Even if you get a pre-nup, it doesn’t work."

Prenups as marriage insurance are a red herring. Generally speaking, courts don't allow people to write their own contracts that differ significantly from what would be standard practice (i.e. certain waivers are not upheld in court). The family court system entitles women to certain things when she decides she's done with her man, and no piece of paper is going to cheat her out of it if the court has anything to say about it.

Badger said...

The final point I want to make is that Vox's reasons for marriage are all well and good, and I haven't ruled out marriage, but I hear from SO many married men "don't get married" or "stay single as long as you can." This from men who love their wives and kids, but can't recommend the same sacrifice if they had it to do over again.

Reminds me of anyone in the Marines I've ever talked to: "uh, oh yeah, the Corps has been great for me, but I don't recommend it to anybody else."

alexamenos said...

That article referenced Dr. H. is fascinating...fascinating in a WTF? sort of way.

Consider the title and sub-title of the article--

The Stigma Of The Never-Married Man: He used to be envied. Now the perpetual bachelor is a social pariah.

The never married man used to be envied? I'm 46 and grew up in a fairly conservative environment, so I have some recollection of the residue of a pre-feminist era. I honestly don't recall the 'never-married man' being envied. In fact, I don't recall hearing the suggestion, from anyone, that a man shouldn't get married in the '80's or '90's. Getting married was what a man did, period.

And the never married man is now a pariah? From the article, Travis' friend Toni says that Travis "...has no problem picking up the best-looking girl in the room."

WTF? Seriously, if someone is going to write an article about how much of a loser never married men are, they'd do better to leave out examples of guys who have no problem picking up the hotties.

Mike M. said...

There's a factor nobody seems to consider - a career ties you to a particular location. Which may or may not be a good place to find a spouse.

Mike M. said...

Badger brings up a good point, too. Miss 1962 had better judgement than Miss 1987, and FAR better judgement than Miss 2012.

Miss 1962 was looking for a steady, reliable man with good prospects and solid husband/father potential. And understood that while domestic drama might be entertaining on TV, it wasn't a good idea in real life. Her granddaughter, Miss 2012, wants her bad boy sperm donor and a generous helping of domestic drama.

I'll say one thing...watch the taxes. Once single men get organized to force our taxes down to the rate of people with kids, the whole edifice will crack.

Stickwick said...

Maybe it's just revealed the capacity for rationalization and cognitive dissonance that makes any non-politican male blush with humility.

Probably. But there's some hint that women knew better several decades ago. As Lauren Bacall's character observed in How to Marry a Millionaire, "If you don't marry him, you haven't caught him, he's caught you." So maybe they weren't any more logical back then, but they were certainly wiser.

Trust said...

I think even women today "know" better. They are just less inclined to care once their desired benefits become a legal entitlement.

Before marriage, women keep dependable men around by being nice and putting out. After marriage, shaming becomes the tactic since his duties are now a legal right to be demanded rather than a gift to be appreciated.

Most married men have memories of minding their own business watching sports, looking in the fridge for a drink, or taking a shower, and unexpectedly getting absolutley pounced by their wives for spontaneous sex or bjs or both. Men would absolutely do anything for their wives at.this point. However as most husbands have guessed by now, these memories of their wide are from before marriage. "Why should I be a sex kitten just to get him to do what he is supposed to do?"

Gratitude turned to shame is no way to improve marriage, but it is what the family courts are largely responsible for.

mark in florida said...

instead of saying women won't find as many men as well-educated, it would be more accurate to say as educationally credentialed as them

Jack Amok said...

"Why should I be a sex kitten just to get him to do what he is supposed to do?"

If a guy has to trade chores for sex, he's doing it wrong. Surprise, women have sex drives too, but the guy has to do something to spark it. Athol over at MMSL is trying to make a career out of 'splaining how that works.

I'm hoping he's wildly successful.

Trust said...

@Jack

I agree men do it wrong. But women also fail to see how they set it up that way. They use sex as incentive pre-marriage which understandably leads a man to draw incorrect conclusions about the woman's true sexuality.

Cail Corishev said...

"Miss 1962 was looking for a steady, reliable man with good prospects and solid husband/father potential."

And to the extent that her tingles encouraged her to forget that, she had her mother, grandmothers, neighbors, church, and the rest of society reminding her. Heck, back then even movie shorts and advertisements warned people against bad boys/girls and taught them what kind of person makes a good spouse. We went from a society almost unanimously encouraging virtue to one almost unanimously encouraging vice, in half a century.

Mike M. said...

Yup. What bothers me the most is that fifty years ago, social pressure was strong - so laws could be weak.

Now, the only solution seems to be to throw the lash of the law onto people's backs.

Spacebunny said...

If a guy has to trade chores for sex, he's doing it wrong. Surprise, women have sex drives too, but the guy has to do something to spark it

Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity. Ignore her sexually for just a little while, pretend (if you need to) that you aren't interested or don't care and yeah, her hamster will rev her up.

Jack Amok said...

Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity.

You seem to be implying those are two different things...


Anywho, after perusing Dr. Helen's blog, I'm convinced certain men should not be allowed to marry. Deltas and Gammas mostly (Omegas sort of take care of themselves that way). Reading the bitter, unmanly snivelling on her blog from guys who screwed up their marriages and blame it all on everyone else just disgusts me.

I'm perfectly sympathetic to a guy who wants to complain that modern society is out to screw him, and I'll commisserate with him over the horrible things women are capable of doing. But if he refuses to see his own role in the fiasco and wants to claim any man who gets married is a fool, well, he can cry in his beer alone.

The pitiful types over there who think because they failed at something then no one else could possible succeed... bah. Well, I guess there's a reason Mother Nature made 60% of men expendable.

Magister Wood said...

I once had a pastor tell me to forget marriage. Just get a good dog.

ALP said...

51 year old female here. Marriage was never a goal for me - been in a 20 year relationship with my boyfriend with no plans to marry.

I grew up during the 70's when young women were encouraged to think twice about getting married as it would be "stifling". I see this as the pendulum swinging the other way: women are in the driver's seat now due to the law discriminating against men - so men are rightly thinking twice about getting married - also because it is seen to be "stifling".

Bah said...

"instead of saying women won't find as many men as well-educated, it would be more accurate to say as educationally credentialed as them"

It's all about perceived social status, so whether or not the "credential" actually indicates real education is beside the point.

mmaier2112 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mmaier2112 said...

"I once had a pastor tell me to forget marriage. Just get a good dog."

Well how to find a good dog? Where's the blog for THAT? /s

JCclimber said...

Part of the issue is that the shaming technique is especially useless for the alpha type man that most women want to marry.

The ones it will work on are the steady deltas who WANT to settle down and get married. Who are willing to take a carousel rider, if she still has a bit of her original attractiveness left over.

The problem is that the word is finally trickling down to the deltas that the ideal situation which has been sold to them their whole lives, is actually a pig in a poke. Or poking a pig, or being poked by the pigs at the instigation of an angry soon-to-be ex-wife.

Hence the continuing drop in TV show viewership by young males.

Trust said...

@Spacebunny said... "Actually, it's not about sparking her sex drive so much as tapping her insecurity. Ignore her sexually for just a little while, pretend (if you need to) that you aren't interested or don't care and yeah, her hamster will rev her up."
_____________

That may well explain why so many women are sexual dynamos before marriage and an ice queens after (at least in regards to their husbands). Before the marriage, an uninterested man can walk out easy, after it is much more difficult, so the "fear of him not being interested" is in a way built in.

Athor Pel said...

"Mike M. said...
...
I'll say one thing...watch the taxes. Once single men get organized to force our taxes down to the rate of people with kids, the whole edifice will crack."



Single men forcing anything with respect to government policy is a laughable prospect. What will happen is already happening, single men refusing to get on the high pay career bandwagon. They are working only as much as they must. They are opting out of the system. No voting, no jury duty, no military service, no car registration, no showing up in government or corporate databases, more and more are going to go ghost.

What I expect to see in the future is more of the productive economy going underground, outside of the tax regime, with cash only or barter. Which will lead to the same outcome you're talking about.

The more they squeeze the more slips through their fingers.

Bob Wallace said...

I like to see Shrink4Men added. She's a psychologist who has a lot of bad things to say about modern women.

Trust said...

@bob

Dr. Tara is a rare woman that is able to empathize with what men have to deal with. Most look at how men get screwed and see only how they can benefit. Dr. T actually thinks about how it must feel to be in their shoes.

Unknown said...

I first married when I was 39 and have since had two daughters. Yes, it's difficult and not as much "fun". The love I receive from my girls and wife, more than makes up for the "excitement" of meeting and bedding strangers.

I took a long term vision. Did I want to grow old in bars, seeking out companionship from older and older and more bitter and more bitter women? No.

I made the right choice. I'm far happier now than I would be had a I remained single.

Anonymous said...

I'm a successful good looking man of 40 who has been married for 5 years, and I enjoy being married. Yes I have less disposable money than I did before I got married, but our overall income and standard of living is higher. My secret to happiness - no children. I think marriage is great if you chose the right partner (I was so done with dating by 35), but what ruins it and causes all the stress is kids. People love their children, but there is strong biology at work. All the parents I know my age are miserable and have no lives of their own.

Herb Nowell said...

Mike M. said...

Yup. What bothers me the most is that fifty years ago, social pressure was strong - so laws could be weak.

Now, the only solution seems to be to throw the lash of the law onto people's backs.


"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

Anonymous said...

One of my dad's friends abandoned his wife and child in the early sixties- back then the working class neighborhood shunned him like it was Amish.

Now shame is gone- you can get a GF pregnant and send her a check- while your married friend has the same or less sex than you- and gets nagged 24/7. Note that women nagging men is never described as emotional abuse.

Marriage has its benefits- some of my friends wives are great- but many aren't- and living with them seems like Hitler's punishment in Hell.

ErikZ said...

"I made the right choice. I'm far happier now than I would be had a I remained single."

You're SO happy, that you post anonymously.

Anonymous said...

Love springs eternal as the grass, and the companionship of two souls united faithfully in marriage with the joy of children is the one true happiness. Men and women who don't marry and hold their baby have not fulfilled their human destiny. God is love; love is God; and our purpose in life is to spread God's love by inviting Him into our lives. I am 72 years old, married first and only for 35, and I know.

Unknown said...

"You're SO happy, that you post anonymously."

My name's BrianS and I'm happy. Happy?

MB said...

We finally found something we can export to China- Womens Studies graduates.

Unknown said...

As a 55 y/o, heterosexual male (and Veteran sergeant of Marines), if I had it all to do over again, knowing what I do now? Marraige would be out of the question. Indeed, any relationship with a woman would not only be unwise, it would be...irrational.

Jimmy said...

You cannot shame a man that is not in society. I was such a single man who didn't date for the simple reason that it is hard to get dates. Men are having a hard time of finding eligible women who are ineligible according to criteria that both men and women set. Men want a good wife and mother of his children. Women want a man to fulfill her and none of the wife/mother obligations. The divide continues.

I would not worry about the shaming. It is such a low incentive to marriage that I wonder why shaming is even bothered. If we can't shame women into not giving up their virginity, then why should shaming men into marrying a good idea?

Hucbald said...

I'm happily divorced with no kids. Would never marry again (OK, never say never, but...). Now basically, "as retired as I want to be" and loving it. Spend NO time or money on females anymore. Haven't even had a GF in the fifteen years since I divorced my ex. I tell folks that I never met the right girl, but I met all the wrong ones, however, I don't think there ARE any right ones anymore. Yeah, I'm hard-boiled cynical now. It's the only logical approach to life.

I have a Ferrari instead of a family, and I get more love from the car than I ever got from my ex. Yeah, I can afford to support a family without making a wife work... but I refuse to. There's no benefit in it for men anymore. Time was - in our not-so-distant agrarian past (My mom was raised on a farm) - a family was an asset for a man. Now, a family is a nightmarish multi-dimensional liability.

No thanks. I'll keep the car.

ErikZ said...

My name's BrianS and I'm happy. Happy?

Yep. That's the sound of happiness. Petty sniping.

So, back to your original post. The reason men don't see the value of marriage is that the woman can leave at any time, for any reason, take the kids and half of your money and earnings.

Why do you think this is not going to happen to you? When looking for a wife, what attribute should WE be looking for?

Dave said...

Before I met my Philippine-born wife I never thought I would get married. Women who grow up in modern American society tend to acquire all sorts of ridiculous expectations for their mate, anti-male attitudes, and emotional issues that just make them impossible to live with long-term.

Probably I'm overgeneralizing a bit, but I really think our phallophobic society has created a real disincentive for men to engage in long-term relationships.

In a nutshell, women demanded to be taken seriously by men but without becoming as rational as men. When you can just laugh their occasional oddities off, women are wonderful to have around. When their emotions become THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN YOUR LIFE AND OMG YOU CANNOT HAVE A MOMENT'S PEACE IF SHE'S NOT HAPPY then men will quickly tire of the emotional blackmail and move on to someone new.

elkh1 said...

Why should a single man saddle himself with a harpie? He gets "it" without paying, now she supplies the condoms. Why get stuck with only one harpie? He has no say if she wants to kill his baby, but has to cough up to support the baby if she decides to keep it. She can even keep him from seeing the baby he supports.

Why bother?

Anonymous said...

"However, the male demand for women has significantly declined due to the increased legal risks and..."

I can think of no better example than Stacey Hessler.

Dave said...

I should add I am very happily married for four of the best years of my life to one of the smartest, prettiest, most devoted woman you'll ever meet (who herself also makes very good money). I have had around a dozen or so girlfriends, and so I know I am very, very lucky.

Anonymous said...

Shame doesn't work anymore. Our leaders do not feel shame and so the common people have learnt to not feel shame. Treasury Secretary Geithner feels no shame. Attorney General Holder is not ashamed of his behavior. Jon Corzine feels no shame. President Obama and President Clinton could not be shamed into doing anything the don't want to do. Celebrities feel no shame. Famous Athletes feel no shame. So common men can ignore shame.

Losing all respect for the Rule of Law is not far behind.

Stan said...

What's shameful about staying single? How can one be shamed if there is none to be had?

Anonymous said...

So the men decide not to have any children. But ALL support late in life comes from children - somebody will have to pay that social security and medicare; and if you raise them properly,your children will personally tend to your needs and support you.

So if they don't marry, and avoid having children, who will support these people? My children? The children my wife and I sacrificed to raise? The gentlemen above bragging about his Ferrari should not be entitled to look to my children for support. I could have bought a parking lot of Ferraris for what I have spent on my children. So fair warning, I'm educating my children to think of other countries to live in and abandon the US - don't assume that my children will be around to support you.

Personally, I think a stable social structure demands that families be the dominant living structure. But that is being rejected by a large part of our population and I don't see the country surviving that change.

Anonymous said...

Support from children? What kind of fantasy land do you live in?

Anonymous said...

35 and single woman here. I'll offer a different perspective. Why are so many guys finding the "harpies"? I think there are probably plenty of good women out there -- steady, logical, fun, and yes -- they enjoy sex. One problem might be that those women might be a bit older, or have smaller tits, or a bigger butt, or they might not be the type that hang out in bars and other pick-up spots. I don't know... I see a lot of good men out there mindlessly pursuing the T&A, and then they get their hearts shredded when the hot, highly-available chick moves on, or is crazy, or becomes the screaming harpy. Shouldn't it be about love and finding someone you can be friends and partners with? Or is it just not that simple anymore? (I keep thinking it should be simple, but what do I know -- I'm single, 35, and don't even date much.)

Anonymous said...

Where are all the Title X equal opportunity Nazis now that female undergrad enrollment is so much higher than mail enrollment? Even the feminist crickets are silent, meaning that all along Title X was not about equality, it was about destroying the role of the male in society.

What are the fruits of this battle for the rest of of us? We are going to be worse off in so many ways as time passes.

TFH said...

The notion that men are 'intimidated by smart women' is stunningly ignorant.

One, they are not.

Two, many women with fancy degrees are not very smart at all. They have not received education, but rather indoctrination masquerading as education.

When one truly examines these women, it becomes clear that there is very little that they can do any better than a 12-year-old boy.

Hence, feminism, far from helping women, has instead exposed the full extent of female limitations far more visibly than was ever possible before feminism.

TFH said...

This topic is not complete without pointing out how more and more men are hiring surrogates abroad and becoming single dads. Like this Canadian man, Toban Morrison :

http://photogallery.thestar.com/1038282

This is not for everyone, of course. But at least men should know that the option exists, and other men have done it.

Once women become too risky and contribute too little in return, the workarounds pop up. This is the age of globalization, after all.

TFH said...

A large part of these 'I have been married for 50 years, from a different time and culture, so everything is OK in the world today' testimonials mask something bad...

...That the man's expectations have been lowered systematically.

They still 'enjoy' sex with their wives, but the outside world sees their 50-year-old wives as obese land-whales that no one else would want.

So the 'happiness' has a huge expectation-lowering component. I bet if any of these men had sex with a 25-year-old hottie even once, they would be as revulsed by their land-whale wives as the outside world is.

MarkD said...

@Anonymous at 1:52. Do you think there is a pile of money in Social Security waiting for you to retire? Someone who isn't younger than you to care for you in your old age?

I've no dog in this fight. My son is, and will probably remain single. My daughters are married and soon to be married. I stole one of Japan's National Treasures, so I know nothing about the problems described here.

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I disagree with the premise about all "Western" women. American women, not all of them but a very large number of them, are simply too demanding, too selfish, too pushy and too slutty. Me me me me me me me. I think in general you find European and foreign women have a softer quality to them that doesn't grate on the nerves. (I am the child of European immigrants so I know what I'm talking about.)

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I've been around six decades and was married for three of them. She died in an accident. Our marriage was far from honey and roses, but we each did our best to honor our commitment. I've been single for 12 years.

Simply put very very few women today of any age demonstrate the responsible adulthood of my late wife. Most of them are irresponsible children in an adult's body. It has little to do with education, and everything to do with a an unwillingness to acknowledge that they, and no one else is responsible for their decisions. Further in my age group most of them are still busy hating the guy they dumped and blaming my gender for his misdeeds or his failure to read her mind.

There are a few female adults out there, and not shockingly they are in high demand. BTW: Most of them are not fashion model beauties, just normal women who've taken reasonable care of themselves and have a brain and a sense of personal responsibility.

I'm an old guard kind of guy. Raised to do the heavy lifting, treat women as inherently valuable, and be a gentleman in the classic sense of the word. However, at my age and after my losses, I am completely intolerant of any kind of games. I don't compete with women. I am completely unthreatened by their success. I enjoy an intelligent woman who can handle her end of a conversation without resorting to PS -BS.

I've watched the government, and the PC police attempt to reduce men to chattel, and I've watched men throw off the lessons I was taught to survive.

Ladies. Shaming won't work, nor will the lash of government. Ultimately, in a democratic republic, 52% can not enslave 48%, especially when you require the help of the 48% to so do. If you are smart, you'll forgo the man hating parts of feminism and teach your daughters to value, love, and respect men for being men. You'll also support reforming the one sided legal process that is forcing men to opt out. If you don't many, perhaps most, of your daughters will end up unmarried, and alone.

Most men are pretty simple. We seek love and validation from a wife. We don't expect her to be perfect, but we do expect mutual loyalty, love, respect and partnership.

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The major reason for marriage is religion. If you don't have it, you are unlikely to get it. The religious groups are reworking the demographics of America. Just as at every census, 7 to 10 seats in US House of representative are moved from the Big Blue Cities, of the Left coast and the Rust Belt, to the Red States.

In New York City, the country's largest Jewish group is rapidly changing from secular reform Jews, to Orthodox. The reason is that secular Jews have one child at best, while Orthodox women have five to six. The orthodox community uses many tactic to induce men to marry. But, the greatest is that you get no respect until you do.

American society has stripped respect from men; Men are mocked repeatedly on TV.

Let me tell you what will happen; Fifty years from now, men will be respected again as providers and protectors, because all the men-hating groups will die off without issue.

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Any partnership has to have a benefit to both people involved. I don't believe men see any value in entering into a marriage. As single men they are either living alone and completely supporting themselves or with roommates and splitting expenses with the benefits of built in pals. Why on earth would they want to get married if by being married their situation doesn't change? Most marriages today consist of both people working which doesn't change your situation at all. Most marriages are run like roommate situations with each person throwing money int the pot for their share of the bills. Why get married if they can enjoy the single life? What benefit do men get? The benefit used to be a clean house, clean clothes and a hot meal. But today that isn't reality. With both people working, much of the household responsibility is expected to be split and then as I mentioned before, what is the benefit? Im not saying women should be barefoot and in the kitchen but someone ( man or woman) has got to take care of the home. In my experiance, women are afraid society will look down on them if they take care of their families instead of choosing a career. Their choice for a career is fine but leaves little time to nurture a relationship.

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Great Post.

To the 35 year old woman. Let me put in female terms. A woman who is older, not very hot, and had a LOT LOT LOT of Alpha cocks, is like a cloying, simpering, supplicating, "supportive" and non-masculine beta male. In other words, totally and completely sexually repellent. There, fixed that for you.

A woman in her mid-late thirties, is competing with porn and prostitutes, to put it bluntly, who are a hell of a lot hotter. A woman that age, will likely average between 20-40 partners, easy. Most guys not deluded know it. Being Mr. 21, or 41, is not special. Women don't form attachments, desires, love, for the twenty-first or forty-first guy they banged. They just don't. Particularly as they are "settling." At best, they can get the dregs of men: guys with major problems, issues, or attractiveness degradation. Any attractive, desirable man can still bag a girl who is ten or more times hotter and maybe fifteen years younger.

Unless she's widowed, an attractive woman who wanted to get married would have done so years earlier. A woman age 35 is not worthless, but she is orders of magnitude less worthy in the Mate/Marriage market than she was at 20. This is just reality.

No, guys don't want fat, aging, lots-of-partners women any more than hot young things want beta males. Porn and prostitutes can beat most average, fat, women at that age (35+). More love, affection, and devotion can be found in a pet. And indeed the rapid increase in pet ownership suggests most men (and women) seek uncritical love from an animal rather than the opposite sex.

Bottom line: in order for men and women to pair up and form families that last, they need to do so fairly early. Ages 16-26 for women, ages 24-32 for men; there are strong reasons to forbid adolescent girls from pairing up (they're monumentally stupid for one) but historically this has been the norm for family formation, with as noted, older men, younger girls, age gap around 6-8 years, due to boys maturing more slowly and resource accumulation requirements.

paulmurray said...

"Shame doesn't work on men. Influencing male behavior requires tangible incentives."

Shame does work on men, but it has to come from someone the man respects.

Micha Elyi said...

Q. "Why should I be a sex kitten just to get him to do what he is supposed to do?"

A. So he'll looooove doing it for you.

Any female who asks such a question suffers from being raised by an ignorant mother.

Anonymous said...

I have to comment on something here about how many posts on this thread revolve around the physical act of sex. It seems to me that this whole mentality is why this whole society has gone off the rails. Lower class women were taught in the 1970's that they had every right to have meaningless sex as a man. And like some other posts have mentioned, who the hell wants some used up woman who's been banged by 20 or 40 different men? How is that any different than a prostitute and just exactly how is cock number 21 or 41 special?

I think the big issue here is that the opinion makers in this society focused on the act of sex and the dummies bought it. Nobody bothered to teach them to understand the relationship and nurturing aspect. It was all about orgasm, the least important aspect and I think this is why you see so many men these days finding mates in foreign countries. I think foreign women understand their role better whereas personality wise a lot of women have become no different than the masculine career wear they used to wear to the office in the 1980's.

I am woman hear me roar.

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Anonymous said...
35 and single woman here...
(Snip, condense: "Where have all the good men gone?!"

Left behind in your youth.

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OTOH, if all the relationship is about is "oh no! I'm still single at _X_ age!" guys don't care as much about that, and at __X___ age sex probably isn't nearly that compelling anymore. Whether it's a Ferrari or a Prius, you'll always get tired of driving it eventually.

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Benjamin Pitkin said...

I'd actually like to offer another thesis to the issue of shame. It is also apparent that there has already been much shame afflicted within western society. Men indeed do value social respect and status. Indeed, Paul instructs wifes in Ephesians to, "respect their husbands". Respect for a man is essential to his well being.

But in the modern western society, respect for men is not to be found. Simply put, men in western society are already riddled with the shame and pressure of a society which does not value them. In the face of which the furhter shame cast upon them is rendered impotent. Because the man has learnt that respect is something which he shall never recieve. Or even worse, is something to which he is not entitled.

misterchef50 said...

But now is also a lot of women do not want to get married. Also, it is rather a problem of civilization, no one has time for his family. live dealer casino for everyone

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Sue Botchie said...

sorry, hit the wrong stupid button. anyway, that Bible is so strict - yeah, the Lord has the nerve to tell folks that He doesn't approve of guys and gals shacking up. can you believe Him? yeah, He's got some nerve horning in on people's lifestyle. hey, if enough folks stand up and tell Him off...

Gaxsax said...

Women have always married up; men down. Feminism has changed nothing in this regard but the shorter supply of desirable men.

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Iguana said...

It's funny. 7-9 years ago, I was obsessed with writing a blog about these topics. I could see all of this coming. The worst of it began with the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). That was the inflection point at which the costs of marriage became larger than the benefits. (Some will say this happened before VAWA, and a case can be made for that). I felt like a lonely voice at the time. Now I have found the so-called manosphere and see our ranks of grown exponentially.

I am all for complaining about the current situation. The process of complaining brings people like us, that comment in these blogs, together. But I have to say that it is not enough. And we are often focused on the wrong people.

Too many people tend to blame women as if they are a monolithic force. The reality is that most of them are clueless. They don't know much about the system that has been created that has left them with such unsatisfied lives.

Where we need to start focusing our attention is on the men that created and now perpetuate the current system of female privilege (VAWA, extreme family court bias, men subsidizing women through Obamacare, and so on and so forth). The vast majority of politicians are still men. They pander to the female vote, promising to "protect" them. Then pass things like VAWA.

It's time we go after them. And do so in an organized fashion. They took the concept of equality and bastardized it into female privilege.

I'm eager to hear ideas about how to destroy the pathetic careers of these men.

Fred said...

Our society has turned into a hierarchical status system: grandparents who are married with children who are married and have offspring outrank grandparents who are married and have children who are married but do not have offspring outrank grandparents who are not married and parents who are married who have children who are unmarried outrank parents who are not married but who have children who outrank people who are married and without offspring who outrank those who are unmarried. The age and sex factors and social-economic-status factors are also operative as markers of rank, but people are acutely sensitive to their marital and reproductive status. People use their status ranking to compete with each other in the daily insult ritual as if it is appropriate to evaluate their world with likes or dislikes but without giving any explanations for why they have disavowed all other values than marriage and reproduction. Love, intimacy, equality all end up short-circuited into false beliefs.

redpillpushers said...

Men have long been aware of the fact that, any American woman in her 30s that wants to be married, but isn't?

It's because there's something glaringly wrong with her. The most common reasons include:

-Ugly
-Fat
-High N Count
-Bitchy
-Will NOT stop talking
-Lots of kids by different Men
-Was pretty but has hit the Wall


...and yet somehow they think they can bring an(or all) of THAT to the table, and secure a lifetime commitment in return.

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